Burglars Rights

Posted on 2003/02/07 13:53:43 (February 2003) by john.

Should they have any?

This stems from a conversation I was having with Simon from work earlier. He mentioned that in British law, if somebody breaks into your house, but injures themselves whilst doing so, then you may be held liable and could be sued for damages. Apparently such cases have actually happened.

So, for example, imagine you've gone away on holiday part way through a spot of DIY, say replacing floorboards, and as such there's a big gaping hole in your floor. On return you find not only have all your valuables been taken, but there's a letter from the burlgar's lawyer, who has been hired on a "no win, no fee" basis, informing that you are liable to pay the guy that broke his leg in the process of robbing your house £20,000 for "loss of earnings".

My natural reaction to this is that this is absolutely absurd. Apparently you are supposed to put warning signs around your house if there are any danger areas. Who in their right mind would do this before going away?

I suppose on a similar vein there is the case of Tony Martin, that Norfolk falmer who shot dead a teenager who had broken into his house. Although in a way our gut reaction might be to the contrary, you have to consider the consequences were Tony Martin not imprisoned. Clearly the teenager (who was just 16) was acting illegally, and having been burgled (in fact most of us here have) I know what an upsetting experience it can be. Be that as it may, he didn't deserve to die for what he was doing. Very few countries in the world have a death penalty for burglary. If Tony Martin went unpunished, effectively this would send a message out that it's OK for everyone else to shoot people breaking into their houses. In effect, the death penalty, metred out by ordinary members of the public, would be deemed acceptable for breaking and entering. This is not the only consequence. Just a few cases of burglars being attacked on entering people's houses may well lead to the burglars themselves becoming far more violent, and increasing the likelihood that they may bear arms. I can sympathise with Mr. Martin to an extent, I can imagine he must have been very frightened having two strangers break into his house. Still, I don't think this can justify killing.

Morals, and therefore indirectly the law, are largely dictated by intention. If you are present when you are burgled, and physically attack the burglar(s), who had no violent intentions, there is a clear intention on your part to cause harm. Similarly, if when you leave your house to go on holiday you set tripwires and mantraps, there is also a clear intention to harm there. If, on the other hand, you hadn't even entertained the thought of being burgled, and had just absent mindedly left a rollerskate at the top of the stairs, it seems somewhat unfair that you can then be held responsible for the injury of someone illegaly entering your home.

I suppose what irks us most about this issue, as Tim once put it I believe, is when people who live outside the law try to then manipulate it for their own benefit. Having said that, as soon as we decide it is OK for members of the public to dispense punishment in a fashion of their own choosing, we end up with something pretty close to anarchy, in which all the positive attributes of a legal system are quickly lost.

Rotating blades, man-traps, explosives, electric fences, minefield, motar system, scarecrow with a shotgun, caltraps, tripwire claymores, huge ball rolling down a narrow corridoor, poison darts from the walls, pit with spikes at the bottom, room with ceiling that crushes, spiked walls, axes falling from the celings, stairs becoming a slide and the whole house filled with toxic gases.

I don't intend to cause harm, I just like to live on the edge. If someone breaks in, I can go to prison even though all the above is intended for my own personal amusement. Put a warning sign on the outside of the house and that way they can't sue.

Fuck 'em they don't have rights, their breaking the law they should not be protected by it.

Posted by Rob Lang at 2003/02/07 15:37:33.

Does the same theory apply to people dropping litter? That's breaking the law isn't it? Should they have their rights removed?

Posted by John at 2003/02/07 16:26:18.

If somebody knowingly breaks in to a property then I have zero sympathy irrespective of out come. Someone broke in to my grandfathers (4ft 10 and 80 years old) house once, he was petrified as he was in the house at the time.

He was in other wise great health. He died months later and I am sure the stress of the event hastened his demise.

I would have no qualms about administering any action that would protect my property from scum.

Posted by Karl at 2003/02/09 13:33:30.

PS Your litter point is equally daft.

Posted by Karl at 2003/02/09 13:34:39.

I must apologies thepoor grammar in my earlier post. I can confirm that is was my granddad that was 4ft 10 an 80 years old, not the house.

Posted by Karl at 2003/02/09 13:40:46.

Sorry to hear that Karl - I agree, it is extremely hard to find sympathy for anyone that would cause such distress to someone so vulnerable for purely selfish reasons.

Posted by John at 2003/02/09 16:35:14.

The problem with burglary or similar, rather like sport (e.g. football) it is easy to be smart after the event. I would hate to have on my conscience that I had inflicted long term harm on some. However, if I were startled by a sudden presence in my home, in the dark, and as a result lashed out and badly injured someone, maybe even killing them then do I disserve gaol? In Tony Martin’s case he led in wait for the intruders with a gun. But this it seemed was after help from police was not available to him. Tony Martin had an illegal fire arm and I believe that this was the problem.

This subject sponsors great emotion in me simply because…

I think we should be entitled to feel ‘safe’ in our home. I feel the crime of burglary is, to a certain extent, a greater crime than actual bodily harm. If attacked one’s body can often repair it self. In deed, violence, in most but not all cases, can be avoided if one is ‘street wise’.

Burglary however can rob you of irreplaceable possessions. I have for instance my granddad’s signet ring, my deceased brother’s CD collection and a hand drawn portrait of him. These items could easily be damaged or stolen in a burglary. If I discovered any one damaging or stealing these items I would not be able to contain my ire.

I strongly believe that the law should be strongly biased towards the owner in these circumstances. People who brake-in to someone’s home with intent to damage or steal should lose their basic human rights.

Posted by Karl at 2003/02/09 23:01:18.

I have an extra question here. If someone broke into *my house*, and happened to meet up with my three doggies... I'm sure the dogs wouldn't appreciate an unknown person in what amounts to their pack territory and would almost certainly defend it.

Am I liable? I suspect I am. So not only could I be sued, but I could also lose my dogs as they would be put down under the Dangerous Dogs Act (1991).

I wonder if I could put up legal disclaimers at each entrance to my house? "The management refuses to accept responsibility for any loss or damage caused to any person entering these premises without our specific permission, how so ever caused." etc..

Posted by rowanboy at 2003/02/10 11:48:29.

Only if they press F8 and ACCEPT

Posted by Karl at 2003/02/11 01:17:40.

Rant! Rant! Rant! That's all you guys do.

Posted by Jimmy at 2003/02/12 08:56:11.

Oh yeah ... wouldn't a "Beware of the dogs" sign solve your doggy-problems? Many people have these on their gates, so they must feel it absolves them from of legal responsibility towards "Bite victims".

Posted by Jimmy at 2003/02/12 09:05:51.

A couple of months ago, while sitting up in bed playing on my laptop computer I saw something out the corner of my eye. I looked to my bedroom door and saw a young man standing at my door with his pants unbuttoned and unzipped. It shocked me and I gasped. I said, "what are you doing in here?" He quickly put his finger to his mouth in the "shhh" gesture and shook his fist at me. I screamed. It woke my husband who jumped out of bed and chased him. Turns out the guy had been stalking my house earlier in the evening while we were out but my oldest daughter was home. He was also outside my bedroom window about an hour prior to breaking in. He entered through my son's bedroom window. When he was discovered, he didn't try to leave my house, he ran and hid in my son's room. My husband found him and a fight broke out. I called the police and we were able to detain him until they got there. His car was two houses down, in the middle of the street still running. The police arrested him and charged him with trespassing. ???????? I called the prosecutor and explained the situation to him. He is going to "try" to charge him with more. We were to go to court last week, but unfortunately we had a snow storm and the state was shut down. When I asked why he was only charged with tresspassing I was told, "you can't prove his intent." HELLO, it was 2:30 AM, he came through a bedroom window and arrived at my bedroom door with pants undone. The guy had different stories as to why he was in my home. First he said he needed to use the bathroom. Secondly, he said he needed a drink of water, thirdly he said he was my children's friend. My children are not near his age and didn't know him. I'm so baffled by the charge and the lack of concern by the authorities. What if I had been home alone? I have been traumatized by this, can't sleep, etc. and he walks away with a light slap on his wrist. OH and the prosecutor read to me the definition of "criminal tresspassing first degree" It reads something like this: Any person that illegally enters a dwelling that resides animals. Uhhh, my kids can act like animals at times but by law they are still considered humans. I don't know what to do about this. Any suggestions?

Posted by Shelly at 2003/02/24 06:33:52.

Wow, that sounds pretty horrible Shelly! Well, I'm not sure which country you're in - the US perhaps? Here in the UK there are all sorts of laws that might be usable in this situation (although I'm not a lawyer and don't really know a great deal about this subject), we have fairly new anti-stalker legislation that might be applicable, and laws like "loitering with intent" causing a breach of the peace, and my personal favourite catch-all "conspiracy to cause a public nuisance", which can carry a life sentence amazingly. I don't know if there are equivalents to these sorts of laws in other countries... I think you just need to talk to other people with legal qualifications in your country. Do you have something like the equivalent of a Citizen's Advice Bureau there?

Posted by John at 2003/02/24 17:54:59.

In leu of an overburdened legal system,overworked prison officials,and really pissed off victims,I recommend we start snuffing these human peices of cocka Asap.If the law has a problem with that,the law should bend over and experience victim`s suffering.No KY jelly-that`s cheatin`.This I do affirm.

Posted by Mark (the claw) de Vroedt at 2003/06/29 07:53:06.

Why are the people in power in the UK frightened of "nailing their colors to the mast" and standing firm against all those crackpots, both in the UK and Brussels, who think a Burglar has rights.
Why does no one ask the commonsense question: What would a Judge or Magistrate do if confronted by a Burglar in their home. Would they invite the Burglar inside and offer him/her a cup of tea and do nothing.
Has no one asked the question; what would have happened had Mr Martin been shot and killed by the intruding burglars. I expect the assassins would have then been given community service or been sent on a holiday at our expense to rehabilitate them.
Burglars forfeit theif rights, if they deserve any, when they break into another persons home or property.
I have even been told by a local policemen to defend myself in this event, should it ever happen.
We live now in a morally broken society where the baddies are rewarded for their efforts and the innocent are sent to prison; Mr Martin is a prize example of the way the establishment looks upon all of us ordinary decent law abinding people.
May be we should introduce "Saudi Arabian" laws, where a thief does not thieve more than twice!
We live in a society where to steal is not called thieving, this appears to be now a non-politically correct term.
Until those in power show some backbone and metal, we are on a track in an engine with the throttle wide open heading for the buffers; disaster in social biblical proportions and the sorry thing about all of this is that the people in power today cannot see this until it is too late.

Posted by Englander at 2003/09/08 15:56:24.

I remember talking to a customer of mine some years ago; an elderly lady. Her husband was a Scotland Yard man who knew many gangland criminals.
She made a comment to me one morning. just about the time when we were experiencing a breakout of Garden Shed Burglaries in our area and this was new to us all.
She said: "Her husband never knew a criminal who came back for a second dose of the Cat". We do however live in more civilised times, they tell us, but unfortunately for all of us, the criminal does not see it this way. Its time that the people; the electorate used the power of the pen at election time to at least try to turn the tide that is coming in.

Posted by freddy at 2003/09/08 16:08:14.

Do Burglars have any rights?, No they don't, The day they trespass onto or into our property is the day they forfeit any rights they have and are fair game.
If there are more criminals, do as the Americans do, build more prisons and change our laws that reflect the punishment to match the crime. Get rid of all those do-gooders who live in cloud cuckoo land and maybe then, just maybe, we will have a better and safer place to live in.
Thousand of men and women died in two world wars so that we might live in a safer world, sadly this has not been the case. people forget, "it was 60 years ago" they say, shame on them all who say this.
There is only one case in recent years that says all about our justice system; The James Bulger case, what a miscarriage of justice, what would the European judges have decided had he been their son or grandson.
There is no justice system in the UK today. Before long we will live in a world of "Mad Max".

Posted by John Stock at 2003/09/08 16:20:02.

Burglars have no rights, if they are trying to rob you in the first place. anything must be done to stop them, Tony martin did the right thing.

Posted by shamas at 2003/11/19 18:33:13.

fuck the burglars they are real dickheads. who do they think they are those motherfuckers

Posted by adz at 2003/11/20 13:50:16.

Adz is such a gay, us burglars have rights

Posted by Hus at 2003/11/22 17:50:42.

you motherfucka who do you think u are u stupid burglar. u sonofabitch hus do u wanna get shot by me. i blow ur motherfuckin head off. basically ur ass

Posted by adz at 2003/11/23 18:00:50.

there are too many people in this world-as a society, we must eliminate the corruppted souls and purge the geene pool so they cannot reproduce.Burglars are really degenerate chimps ,not truehumans.We should slice them thin enough to tar a roof before letting them go.Peace out.

Posted by Marc Van deVilroe at 2003/11/27 04:49:23.

If you break into my home and I catch you, you will wish you hadn't bothered.

I'll take my chances with the Law but the judge will probably see my point and go easy on me.

All burglars should be forced to join the armed forces and go and live in Iraq.

Posted by Charles Bronson at 2004/03/09 17:01:50.

but if the burgulars went to iraq then they would join with al quida and get their own back

Posted by N/A at 2004/04/20 13:53:55.

hypothetically speaking, how would one set et up a trip wire around say the side yard of an apt.? Not dangerous, but perhaps that triggers a light and/or bell inside if oh, a stray dog or the like enters nightly and dumps the trash can?

Posted by shameless at 2004/07/04 24:26:14.

I know someone in the past who tied a thief to a tree and he piss himself with fear before they even started on him, he got what he deserved a real good kicking and I mean a real good kicking to say as far as we know he never broke into a house again!

Posted by To catch a theif? at 2004/08/04 10:44:48.

We europeans are such pussies. Most of you would piss your pants and not do anything anyway. I'am so old I remember when this was a free continent. But socialism has castated us all. Sorry if my english is bad I am learning.

Posted by Joey De Clerk at 2004/12/17 20:56:10.

Can any1 help me? i am writing a speech for my english coursework about burglars rights in the uk, and i am for having the law changed to allow victims to have more freedom to defend themselves against intruders. Any1 got any good arguments i could use?

helen x

Posted by helen at 2005/01/30 20:46:48.

Burglars DON'T have rights. I was robbed 3 times. Someone who has been robbed more than once surely know with what kind of fear you sleep at night because you're always thinking the next guy that breaks in your house might kill you and your family.
I actually lied, I was robbed only 2 times. The third time I had my baseball bat ready and when the 2 guys came in I bashed the first one in the face and the other in the back while he was trying to run. Yes, I waited for them to come in! Yes, I intended to hurt them! And I hit both of them more than once, enough that when the police came they were still unconscious.
Oh well, I wasn't sued and the judge said that I did the right thing in protecting my house!
Everybody please take my example! When someone breaks in your house they are prepared to kill you, so you must be prepared to defend yourself!

Posted by Fiorino at 2005/02/15 20:36:19.

Your life means nothing and your property / house means nothing. The only thing that is important is the law. The law is everything. The law is even more important than life and God him/her self. The law is all consuming and controlling. It pervades every facet of our lives. It controlls us, compresses us and strips us of any common sense or scruples. The law is a set of rules by which we are told we must behave / live to. The law is there to control the masses and protect the ruling political party. Do these writers of the law ever get it wrong? No. They are totally correct at all times. Accept what the law tells you to do and never question it. The laws of the land were after all written by people far more intelligent than we mere proliteriates. These law writers are human beings from the perfect order. We are all scum by comparison.

When these law writers die, one by one new writers replace them to create ever more laws that further constrain our every movement and thought. This is the perfect world where people are no longer able to think for themselves. Free speech must be crushed and anyone stepping outside the law shall be vapourised.

If the law states you must cut off your right are them you must do it to be a good citizen. If the law states that you must just stand still and allow others to strip you of your worldly goods and even your life, then you must obey. For the law is everything and must be up held, regardless of the personal costs. Right?

Of course the alternative is to nail to the nearest tree any criminal who tries to steal from you, to pour gasoline over the head of the man who rapes your 3 year old daughter and slowly lower into a meat mincer the guy who attempts to rob you of yoour lifes' savings.

As for the law writers, if you disagree with what they have written while sitting at their solid oak desks in their rather large and very expensive homes, then why not form a campaign to oust the fucker form office. Come election time write to your M.P or Governor and tell him / her exactly why you will not be voting for them and if you know of a dead and buried former law writer then dig the fucker up and piss on his scull, take a picture of this action and post it to his surviving family. And remember, you can always creep into ther house of a living law writer in the middle of the night and stand at the foot of his bed and start masterbating over his wife. When the two mother fuckers wake up and see you standing at the foot of their bed, massibe erection in hand, just say, 'hello, Ive just come to tell you that I disagree with your laws'' Then just sit down on their bedroom chair, put your cock back in your trousers and wait for the police to arrive. When the biggest criminals of all arrive (the cops) , just tell them you, as a criminal, are protected by the law and wish to litigate against the couple you exposed yourself to on the grounds that they were so old and ugly that you failed to acheive an orgasm. Then sue the mother fuckers into the ground!!!

Posted by Grub at 2006/01/07 14:55:33.

Your life means nothing and your property / house means nothing. The only thing that is important is the law. The law is everything. The law is even more important than life and God him/her self. The law is all consuming and controlling. It pervades every facet of our lives. It controlls us, compresses us and strips us of any common sense or scruples. The law is a set of rules by which we are told we must behave / live to. The law is there to control the masses and protect the ruling political party. Do these writers of the law ever get it wrong? No. They are totally correct at all times. Accept what the law tells you to do and never question it. The laws of the land were after all written by people far more intelligent than we mere proliteriates. These law writers are human beings from the perfect order. We are all scum by comparison.

When these law writers die, one by one new writers replace them to create ever more laws that further constrain our every movement and thought. This is the perfect world where people are no longer able to think for themselves. Free speech must be crushed and anyone stepping outside the law shall be vapourised.

If the law states you must cut off your right are them you must do it to be a good citizen. If the law states that you must just stand still and allow others to strip you of your worldly goods and even your life, then you must obey. For the law is everything and must be up held, regardless of the personal costs. Right?

Of course the alternative is to nail to the nearest tree any criminal who tries to steal from you, to pour gasoline over the head of the man who rapes your 3 year old daughter and slowly lower into a meat mincer the guy who attempts to rob you of yoour lifes' savings.

As for the law writers, if you disagree with what they have written while sitting at their solid oak desks in their rather large and very expensive homes, then why not form a campaign to oust the fucker form office. Come election time write to your M.P or Governor and tell him / her exactly why you will not be voting for them and if you know of a dead and buried former law writer then dig the fucker up and piss on his scull, take a picture of this action and post it to his surviving family. And remember, you can always creep into ther house of a living law writer in the middle of the night and stand at the foot of his bed and start masterbating over his wife. When the two mother fuckers wake up and see you standing at the foot of their bed, massibe erection in hand, just say, 'hello, Ive just come to tell you that I disagree with your laws'' Then just sit down on their bedroom chair, put your cock back in your trousers and wait for the police to arrive. When the biggest criminals of all arrive (the cops) , just tell them you, as a criminal, are protected by the law and wish to litigate against the couple you exposed yourself to on the grounds that they were so old and ugly that you failed to acheive an orgasm. Then sue the mother fuckers into the ground!!! Remember, as a criminal you have rights and this surely must include the right to have an orgasm while standing over the bed in the middle of the night of a terrorised elderly couple?

Posted by Grub at 2006/01/07 14:57:14.

Catch 'em, kill 'em, hide body, tell no one, job done.

Posted by Hereford Man at 2007/10/02 00:56:07.

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